Sparring Over Papal Obedience

A Social Media Showdown on Who Really Decides What’s “Catholic”

I recently shared a segment clip from a podcast episode, in which I addressed a question from the audience, ‘Do laypeople have to obey the pope?” Naturally I started the post with that very question, as a way of introducing the clip I was posting a link to.

I knew this was going to raise some eyebrows. But I wasn’t expecting this.

I’ll let the exchange mostly speak for itself, with some additional insertions and explanations —Labeled, “Supplement” — that I think are important to the big picture, but not necessary for getting something out of the exchange proper. Try to pay very close attention to what’s being said in this exchange, because it’ll help guard you from falling into error somewhere in your personal Catholic adventure. I’ll abbreviate a bit, removing parts of it that aren’t pertinent or necessary.

Now let’s do this. Remember, the exchange started with the post’s intro, “Do laypeople have to obey the Pope?”

Commenter 1: Not if the Pope is asking us to do something contrary to Catholic teaching

Me, in response to Commenter 1: Well yes and no. The Pope doesn't have free rein over Catholic teaching [so he couldn’t single-handedly change it]; that's what the magisterium is for.

Supplement: How do we define ‘Magisterium” as Catholics?

The Magisterium of the Catholic Church is the Church's teaching authority, responsible for interpreting and preserving divine revelation as found in Sacred Scripture and Tradition. The Magisterium consists of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him, guided by the Holy Spirit, to authentically teach matters of faith and morals. So it’s incorrect to suggest that the Pope is the single authority on Church teaching. He is not. The whole magisterial body —the Cardinals, in union with the Pope—is the Church’s teaching authority, taking its authority from Jesus. Here are some scripture references outlining the unique teaching authority of the Magisterium

Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus, claiming all authority, commissions the apostles to make disciples, baptize, and teach His commands to all nations, promising His presence with them.

John 20:21-23: Jesus sends the apostles with His authority, bestowing the Holy Spirit and granting them the power to forgive or retain sins.

Luke 10:16: Jesus declares that those who hear or reject the apostles’ teaching are hearing or rejecting Him and the Father who sent Him.

Matthew 16:18-19: Jesus designates Peter as the rock of His church, giving him the keys to the kingdom and the authority to bind and loose, implying teaching and governing power.

My Response to Commenter-1 Continues: So that fear [of the Pope, on his sole authority, misdirecting the Faithful away from Church teaching] doesn't apply. The other problem is many Catholics don't know Catholic teaching nearly as well as they think. I see it every day. The example I gave in the clip was when Catholics freaked out over Francis "changing" Church teaching on the death penalty. That was not a change of the Church's teaching, it was a re-assertion of it—a teaching that goes back to St. Augustine.

Catholics should obey the pope whether or not they agree with him, and whether or not they "think" he's asserting authentic Church teaching and theology. Because 9.9999 times out of 10, the pope has it right, and the faithful do not. If the pope teaches something we don't understand, we should accept it anyway, and work on understanding it down the road a bit. If we instantly say "Nope! That's not Church teaching" Not only are we exercising the vice of pride, we are also resisting the opportunity to learn more than we knew before.

The commenter didn’t follow up or reply. But another commenter did.

Commenter 2: [Addresses Commenter 1], Without perusing the clip [gives his opinion without even watching the clip…but whatever!], I can tell you as Saint Paul and Saint Padre Pio, et al saints who did not heed the pope of their time in matters that transgressed Our Lord’s commands…

What?? Pio and Paul disobeyed the Pope?? Let’s break down this claim in another Supplement, because you need to understand how truth gets distorted by just slightly modifying a few small parts of the whole story.

Supplement: Let’s start with Paul ‘not heeding the Pope’: I’ve heard this before, but it was long ago, so I could be wrong about what he’s talking about. But I think this probably refers to a moment in Galatians 2:11–16 where Paul calls out Peter in Antioch. Basically, Peter (the first Pope) stopped eating with Gentile Christians because he didn’t want to catch heat from Jewish Christians who found it deplorable. Paul wasn’t having it—he saw it as hypocritical and completely missing the point of the Gospel, which is all about being justified by faith, not by sticking to old Jewish laws.

But here’s the thing; this doesn’t really show that Paul was just ignoring the pope or disobeying some official Church teaching. Peter wasn’t making a doctrinal call here—it was more of a personal choice—political, perhaps—that Paul thought was hypocritical and misleading. So Paul pushed back but it wasn’t a case of him rejecting papal authority.

Now, Padre Pio: The claim about Padre Pio supposedly defying the pope doesn’t hold up either. In fact Padre Pio is renown for his obedience to the Church, even against the great challenges he faced. He had the stigmata, went through intense Vatican scrutiny, and was even banned for a time from saying public Mass or hearing confessions because of concerns about his mystical experiences and how people were reacting to him. Still, he never pushed back publicly—he just quietly obeyed, and never publicly dissented even when it must have felt unfair.

Near the end of his life, in 1968, he wrote to Pope Paul VI, affirming his “"unconditional obedience" to the Pope’s teachings, particularly regarding the encyclical Humanae Vitae. He wrote, “I reaffirm my faith, my unconditional obedience to your instructions”

Padre Pio didn’t have it easy and in some ways it was made harder by the human element of the ecclesial Church. But he was a hard-core, loyal son of the Church, and obedient to the last!

Commenter 2 continues: [Do we always need to obey the pope?] The answer is always a “declarative NO!” a Catholic should “never” obey any Pope who is in “error” of the faith handed down from Our Lord and his Apostles as Peter once did and Francis Bergoglio the foretold “false pope” did a plethora of times.

Here we have a jumble of some very heavy, and verrry Catholc-y words. This language beguiled me in my younger days, when I was nearly pulled away from the Church by Sede Vacantists. The Sedes are masterful at this technique; using language that’s very characteristically “Catholic” to manufacture credibility for arguments that are errant or empty. I’m not saying this person is a Sede Vacantist, I’m only saying that I’m very familiar with the strategy here. Sede tactics, strategies, and theology have long infected the True Church, generally through the channel of the Church’s Traditionalist camps (Sorry, Trads, nothing personal. I love you, but this is just true.)

Finally, my response to Commenter 2: Pay attention, class!

What qualifies you to say a pope is in error? The faithful get that wrong all the time, across 2000 years. This idea that people should measure the Holy Father—the Vicar of Christ—against their own understanding of Church teaching, sacred tradition, etc. is just Protestantism, wrapped in Catholic clothing.

And I say this with total respect and affection, because you're very obviously well meaning and of good will, and I'm thankful to you for that. But opinions and statements such as the one you presented here have done tremendous harm to the faithful, and therefore to the Church. As a 30 year veteran evangelizer I have seen the harm firsthand. It's spiritual, it's emotional, and it's psychological. People have been driven to such distrust of the Church that they feel compelled to just go it alone, and get it all wrong.

You are not putting people on a path to orthodoxy, my brother, you are putting them on a path to soft apostasy. And I say that as someone who has witnessed it, time and again. The Church is in good hands. The Holy Spirit and the Blessed Mother guide and protect the Bride of Christ, and the Holy Spirit keeps Christ’s vicar from going off the rails. People spent Francis' entire pontificate shouting "Heresy!" Folks did a great job in stirring up the masses into frightful frenzy, for absolutely no good at all. No heresy was taught, no sacred tradition violated. No female priests, no erasure of doctrine. Nothing!

Will those same people do this same alarmism under Leo? I guarantee you they will. Because care of the Church is not their real motive. Being "the saviors of the Church" is, and so they'll always have to fabricate a monster to rescue the Church from.

Class dismissed. Tap like if you enjoyed the lesson! Drop a comment and let me know your thoughts. I read every comment, and respond to almost all of them—there being so few, that’s easy to do.

Hey, consider subscribing to my podcast’s website at catholicexperience.fm